Curse

Asha Rai · Mar 08, 2008, 10:48 AM // 10:48

I just made a paragon, and am working out what skills to run on her.

Aggressive refrain seams to be pretty standard on skill bars recommended here, but it seems to me frenzy makes a good, and at times better alternative.

With cracked armor, you will be taking 40% more damage, with frenzy, 100% more, so bad in both cases. And I imagine ai monks will burn a lot of energy trying to remove cracked armor from you, although with the change foul feast, this may not be as big a deal. Another drawback of aggressive refrain is either reapplying it, or taking (and constantly using) an energy based shout to maintain it. Stopping every 15 seconds to shout doesn't appeal to me.

The obvious pro of frenzy is that you attack faster.

My tentative bar looks like:

[skill]spear of lightning[/skill][skill]blazing spear[/skill][skill]spear of fury[/skill][skill]frenzy[/skill][skill]save yourselves[/skill][skill]focused anger[/skill][skill]for great justice![/skill][skill]signet of return[/skill]

So I guess my question is, is my assessment of frenzy accurate? And what improvements can be made to my bar. I plan to mainly play hm gwen dungeons with this.

Tyla · Mar 08, 2008, 10:51 AM // 10:51

For Paragons, Aggressive Refrain > Frenzy.
Unremovable buffs with next to no drawback ftw.

Keekles · Mar 08, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

You should add "there's Nothing to fear" to your bar. It's just way too good =)

a) Stance Cancel
b) Micro-manage Prot Spirit

Although, I don't see anything wrong with AR. In fact, I usually go with 2 para heroes, one of whom also has AR. TntF! and SY! seems to balance things out quite well.

Gaia_Hunter · Mar 08, 2008, 11:12 AM // 11:12

To sum up paragons are rarely target by AI, so it doesnt matter if u have cracked armor or not.

I used to be annoyed that monks spent so much energy removing cracked armor, but during battle its not priority for them. Also Im generally giving one of my eles or necros extinguish, so Ive no problem with aggressive refrain anymore.

Team Ramrod · Mar 08, 2008, 11:27 AM // 11:27

In pve, you can use whatever you want, and it will still be effective. If you're gvging, aggressive is the way to go on a para.

Washi · Mar 08, 2008, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asha Rai

Stopping every 15 seconds to shout doesn't appeal to me.

You don't have to stop to use shouts. TNTF ftw.

Asha Rai · Mar 08, 2008, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Thx for the input all. I'm seeing no compelling reasons to use AR though, although I observe some people are very pro AR.

The damage difference is obviously an issue, but against hard mode ele bosses, I'll be relying on prot regardless of the IAS used. Other than that, I can think of only two stance removal skills, but frenzy has a 4 second recharge, so thats no big deal. That just leaves the 33% vs 25% advantage of frenzy, and the minor issue of constantly having a condition on u.

@ keekles good idea *replaces res with sprint*

Tyla · Mar 08, 2008, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Still. Frenzy consumes more energy, and Anthem of Flame is free energy with AR, the condition is minor, if not less. AR is even unremovable.

Asha Rai · Mar 08, 2008, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Yeah, will have to see if energy is a prob. SY lasts 5 seconds for me though, so thats 6 energy every 5 seconds plus 2 pips, so I figure I should be ok. May need to replace a spear attack with gfte though.

Arkantos · Mar 08, 2008, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Aggressive Refrain is the best IAS for a paragon. Add TNTF to your bar with 12 leadership and you won't have to stop to reapply AR.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 08, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Ramrod

In pve, you can use whatever you want, and it will still be effective.

Just to test that, I ran into the Underworld on my elementalist carrying Flare and Firestorm, with my heroes running similar builds, and a friend I grabbed doing the same. We tried to kill some Aatxes, and died in seconds.

You, sir, are a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing liar. Or ignorant. Whatever.

Tyla · Mar 08, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Just to test that, I ran into the Underworld on my elementalist carrying Flare and Firestorm, with my heroes running similar builds, and a friend I grabbed doing the same. We tried to kill some Aatxes, and died in seconds.

You, sir, are a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing liar. Or ignorant. Whatever.

That's mainly dependant on the monks.
Prot Spirit > Aatxe.

Tearz1993 · Mar 08, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Just to test that, I ran into the Underworld on my elementalist carrying Flare and Firestorm, with my heroes running similar builds, and a friend I grabbed doing the same. We tried to kill some Aatxes, and died in seconds.

You, sir, are a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing liar. Or ignorant. Whatever.

Possibly the most useless post I've seen this week...

Anyways personally I liked AR because in PvE there are random dmg spikes which would screw you over if you have frenzy up... Also, as people have said, AR can be maintained by using AoF as well which is useful even without AR

- Tain - · Mar 08, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

AR is unremovable and renewing - after you cast it, you're done. It's plenty of IAS, and leaves your energy open. With that, I like to run energy attack skills on a SY! bar (Vicious Attack, Spear of Fury, and Swift Javelin). This also means that ALL of your adren is going to SY!, and although yours is already a nice 5s, there is always blocking/blinding/hexes that can slow down your adren gain.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 08, 2008, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz1993

Possibly the most useless post I've seen this week...

Your face is useless.

Anyways, my point being that while in low-end PvE anything will work, the same goes for low-end PvP like RA and AB.

Humans are not much more difficult to predict than AI are. Just watch their patterns and you can see what they'll do.

Richardt · Mar 08, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

In low end PvE you could prob. get away with Frenzy-heck even I tried it at some point on my para-and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

But if you really want to get serious with your para, use AR. Sure the cracked armor is a little annoying if an aggro breaks, but it's better than getting hit for double damage.

Daenara · Mar 08, 2008, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Agressive > Frenzy on a paragon. If you put on a sup leadership headpiece for that first cast, you can get 24/25 second agressive refrain, which is easy to keep up with anthem of flame, or TNTF if you don't like to stop to shout.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 09, 2008, 12:14 AM // 00:14

If talking about PvP, then I really don't know.

If not, then oh dear god no. AR AR AR AR. I advise against using Frenzy in PvE unless you seriously need to, or know very well what you are doing. Even so, AR can be kept up 100% of the time without too much effort. Even TINTF can keep it up! 25% vs 33% is not that big of a difference compared to how much more energy you'll be wasting away with Frenzy.

Cracked armor is no big deal and by no means does it make you squishy, despite what people think. in PvE you should be running full Centurion and a max/near-max shield. Even if AI does decide to target you, a small kite will shift their attention almost immediately, and you can resume attacking. Cracked armor can be removed by a good monk with no problem, and if your getting energy problems off that, then you should get a better build for said monk. In my experiences, Cracked armor is being reapplied so much during battle that monks tend to ignore it and focus on others (mainly because of the placement of the condition removal on his bar. Keep in mind that heroes prioritize skills to the left more often.)

Besides, with the new Foul Feast, your necro will be thanking you for the cracked armor.

Sir Owns Alot EP · Mar 09, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

I personally use Frenzy, and having a cancel stance is not all that important in NM PVE. You will rarely be targeted as long as you have minions/tanks, so not too many worries about the double damage.

Naylyn · Mar 09, 2008, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asha Rai

With cracked armor, you will be taking 40% more damage, with frenzy, 100% more

Seems like a pretty clear choice to me. No matter what small benefits that frenzy may have, 60% more damage is a lot. Take AR.